The Tridentine Mass

Hi everyone,

It's nice being back!! It took me awhile to remember my password

Lately, I've been intrigued by the Tridentine Mass. I found out that they have one here locally, and I told my fiance that I would very much like to attend one. He agreed to to take me.

So I've been wondering, what it is like? I've heard that it really moves people. I've asked my father about it, and he only remembers bits and pieces of it. Should I attend a High Mass instead of a Low Mass? Wear a Mantilla?

I guess I've been wanting to go to one because lately, I've been tired of the music they have in my parish church, it's been so loud and distracting, that I can't really concentrate in prayer.

I was wondering if anyone here would like to share any stories & experiences that you've had with the Tridentine Mass, and maybe tell me what to expect. I don't really want this to turn into a thread that is nothing but cut and paste info about the Tridentine Mass. I just want it to be a disscussion about your experiences and a little advice. Thanks!

Excellent idea Bood!!! The Tridentine Mass has interested me lately too. I never experienced it myself and would like to know about it before going.

The High Mass

Phoenix, the High Mass is the most reverent and moving. This is partly because of the music and chant and the elaborate vestments. Hopefully, you can find a High Mass in your area but most of the churches offering the Latin Mass are limping by with a Low Mass. Even back when all the Masses were in Latin, there was usually only one High Mass in each church on a weekend.

I doubt you will need to wear a mantilla, although we used to wear them back in the old days. The main thing you should notice at a Latin Mass is a greater degree of reverence and an awareness that it is God up there at the altar, not a piece of toast, and the priest's movements and actions are meant to direct our attention to God, not entertain us.

The Mass should be centred on God, not on the people. It seems to me that this has been just one of the misinterpretations of Vatican II.

I don't wear a mantilla for the Tridentine Mass; I wear jeans or trousers, as usual. It is how you behave that matters, not precisely what you wear. Though, as in any Catholic church, you'll not get in if you wear shorts or a top which is held in place only by very thin shoulder straps - shoulders must always be covered.

The main difference is that for Communion one must kneel and receive on the tongue. In the church I attend two prie dieus are provided, because the altar rails were removed [another sad result of "the changes"]

Did anyone see the High Mass presided over by Dario Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos on EWTN recently? It was from somewhere in Nebraska, I think - sorry I can't remember the exact place. It was a Mass with priestly ordinations. This Mass was utterly beautiful and reverent. Cardinal Hoyos also came to England to celebrate High Mass in Westminster Cathedral last month. It was a terrible snub that Cormac Murphy O'Connor was not present; neither were any of the bishops of England and Wales.

Thanks everyone for the kind & helpful replies

I think my dad did say that the High Mass is better, and since you ladies said it's the best, I'll attend that one.

Mary, I do have this Missal, I got it in Feb of 2006. Is it the right one?

www.baroniuspress.com/book.php?wid=56&bid=4

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You will experience the true mystery of the Mass, which is what it's all about and why the priest and people face the same way - not priest facing away from the people, as it's so often described.

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I really like this quote, I've never thought about it that way. I have commonly heard it described with the priest facing away from the people.

I really want to hear some Gregorian Chant in Mass. It really does uplift one's soul and help the mind focus on God. I really wish that my computer would let me watch youtube videos. They did have a Tridentine Mass on there.

Yes, Bood, that's the correct Missal; I checked your link. It must be wonderful to own one. Many of the feast days are different. I can't understand why these were changed. While I can appreciate some of the liturgical innovations of Vatican II - such as use of the vernacular language - there are others that seem completely inexplicable and pointless. I became a Catholic in 1968, when the Novus Ordo was already being implemeted, though the wording was slightly different from the current NO Mass - I think this dates from 1972. Benefan will be able to tell us more, because she's a cradle Catholic.

" Benefan will be able to tell us more, because she's a cradle Catholic."


Uh-oh. Sorry, Mary and Phoenix, but I'm not. My folks had me baptized when I was 9. Before that, I wasn't anything although my family started to attend church when I was 7.

I think I still have a couple of the old missals lying around. (We never throw anything away here, especially religious stuff.) But I'm afraid I don't know much about the changes you mentioned, Mary. I suspect Wulfrune or Teresa would know or perhaps PapaBear. What I remember about Vatican II was the confusion and chaos that erupted after it but I don't recall specific changes in feast days or wording. Sorry.

I wish that I had my missal with me, but I left it on my fiance's kitchen table this evening. But I was wondering if they follow all the wording in the missal during the mass. Or would it be a bit different?

Oooo!! I was also wondering if the priest reads the Gospel in Latin or if in English. My dad didn't remember. Does the priest also do a homily?

Benefan, do you attend the Tridentine Mass frequently?

Benefan - that means I was baptised at a much earlier age than you were! I was two weeks old when I was baptised, but it was in an Anglican church in my grandparents' village. When I became a Catholic I was conditionally baptised again, but I don't think this is done any more, if the original baptismal certificate can be found.

Yes, it's all in Latin, Bood. But much of it is silent, so you tend to lose your place. There is a homily at a High Mass, but not at the Low Mass I attend. I did attend one High Mass and I remember the priest put on his biretta to deliver the homily, plus I also remember that the homily was about the life of Saint John Cantius [ I hope I have the right person and spelling of his name]. I remember this because it wasn't the usual homily based on the Gospel of the day. I can only think that it was his feast day from the "old" calendar.

Bood, retrieve your Missal as soon as possible, so that you can have a good look at it. I'd like to buy one, but I wonder if it's worth it. It really depends on what happens after the three year period has expired. Papa is then going to review the situation and see how successful Summorum Pontificum has been.

Wulfrune does remember the Tridentine Rite to some extent - she was very young at the time.

Phoenix,

The only sanctioned Latin Mass we have in our diocese is held at a church downtown, a bit of a distance from where I live. An older priest, one of only two in our diocese who are pretty fluent in Latin, says a Low Mass there each week. My husband and one of our sons used to attend the Latin Mass pretty regularly until my husband became physically unable to attend church any longer. I think my son and his wife still attend there often. He says a lot of young families are regulars.

I usually go to my local parish church, which uses the New Mass. My knowledge of the Latin Mass is from my memory of the way it was before Vatican II and from what my husband and son have told me. I believe that at the Low Mass here, the epistle and Gospel readings are in English and there is always a homily. Can't escape that.

I have been trying to get up the nerve to ask the associate pastor at my church to consider celebrating a High Mass in Latin. He is a former Episcopal priest and very reverent and traditional. He also has a terrific singing voice and spends Thursdays at a Benedictine monastery not far from here, praying with the monks. I don't know how much Latin he knows but I suspect he knows some and could pick up on the rest very easily. I am sure he could present a very moving and beautiful Latin Mass. One of these days.....

Mary, the Missal is very beautiful, and has a lot of different things in it. I just really hope that it comes in handy when the time comes.

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To provide our Choir a Summer recess, during July a High Mass will be sung on the first and third Sundays of that month; two Low Masses will be offered on the second and fourth Sundays. During August there will be no Sunday High Masses - - both Masses on each Sunday of August will be a Low Mass.

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That is from the Latin Mass Society website for where I live. Maybe I'll just wait until September. I don't want my fiance to be turned off.

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I have been trying to get up the nerve to ask the associate pastor at my church to consider celebrating a High Mass in Latin.

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I really hope that you do Benefan, that would be great!

Hmm, I was looking at some Latin Mass pics, and I notice that a priest holds up a Monstrance. I think that would be very beautiful to see!

Phoenix, this is just great! I have been attending High Mass in the Traditional form at a local monastery and although much of it has been unfamiliar to me, the sense of holiness is palpable. I cannot explain it, I just know that after my first TLM I went around in a sort of holy fog all day! I did wonder if it was my guardian angel - a very famous setting for the the TLM is after all, the Missa de Angelis. The High Mass has the Bible readings and homily in English, but omits the Second Gospel (which is always the same, the opening lines of John's gospel and it's read at the end of the Mass, if it's read at all).

I'm thinking from what I've come across, if you might not be better off attending a Low Mass because it is all audible and you can follow it in your shiny new missal. As Mary says, the first part of the High Mass is silent and you cannot hear it spoken. That's presumably why some people used to take their rosaries to Mass.

I am a cradle Catholic but remember little of the way Mass used to be as my parents aren't both Catholic and I didn't get a fully Catholic upbringing.

I attended the Tridentine Mass said in Westminster Cathedral by Cardinal Castrillon Hoyos last month - it was a Pontifical High Mass, lasted two hours, with the Bible readings in Latin (we were given booklets with everything written in Latin and English) but the homily in English, and for that I wore a mantilla. I got chatting to the girl next to me who explained that during a High Mass the first part of the liturgy is said silently, so even if you take a missal, you won't be able to 'follow' it though you can pray the words from your missal if you wish. Later, during the Eucharistic Liturgy, you will be able to follow the words.

I don't wear a mantilla or anything fancy at the monastery Mass - you need to follow the procedure of each place of worship. If the church you plan to attend is run by the SSPX then the Mass doesn't fulfil your Sunday obligation, because, sadly, they aren't yet in full union with Rome (this needs lots of prayer). SSPX churches expect women to wear dresses and mantillas (so I am told).

There are some good resources online and I would recommend them because the old Mass (as Card C Hoyos calls it 'the Gregorian rite) can be confusing.
Latin Mass Society of England and Wales

Latin Mass Society of Ireland

Homepage of Latin Mass Society of Ireland

Una Voce - America

Sorry to have been a bit late in responding - I've just got back from a week in Germany. Great to hear from you again!

It's not what you think it's the best for you, it's what the Catholic Church believes it's better for you.

The Pope made clear in the "Motu Proprio" that he gave a chance to the priests: to be more free to celebrate in the form that is closer to someone who is "in want of" - for instance - following the 1962 missal.

It is also clear that the "common" way to celebrate is following the actual missal. Common means "ordinary", ordinary means that is good for all.

You shouldn't prefer the old missal for the new. You could do better trying to "merge" two experiences, remembering that the ordinary missal is the standard, it contains the basics of the faith, it is closer to the modern age. And it could be even renewed by the extraordinary form, and vice-versa. But if a choice is to be taken, go for the ordinary form.

Wulfrune: Apparently attending a SSPX Mass does fulfil the Sunday obligation. I read it somewhere reliable [NOT The Tablet, of course!], but after hunting all through last week's Catholic Herald cannot find the source. I think there was a rider that you had to be completely unable to find a Catholic Church other than a SSPX chapel, something like that. Anyway, no one must attend a SSPX Mass regularly and shun the Mass accepted by the Catholic Church.
Personally, I would not attend a SSPX Mass - I'd feel very uncomfortable doing so, plus I am not going near a group which upset our present Holy Father so deeply, when, in 1988, they came very close to returning to Rome and at the last minute backed out.
My feelings are that they don't want to come back into the fold of the Holy See and actually like being different. If that's the case, let them get on with it.

Duck Slayer - no one is saying that the TLM is 'better' so please don't start a straw man argument.

The Holy Father wishes to make the Tridentine rite available to all who want it. I don't like this dichotomy between 'old' and 'new' - it's not very Catholic anyway. The church doesn't change, it develops, and the way the Novus Ordo was introduced was against the whole idea of organic development.

I usually attend a Novus Ordo mass on Sunday but I find the Old Mass more conducive to silence and prayer. I also appreciate that the priest faces the same way as the people.

Mary - I agree that there have been some awful things said about the Holy Father by people in the SSPX - but the movement has over 400 priests. Ratzinger is reported to have said that the vocations he's seen are excellent and he desires to have unity restored - for that the SSPX will have to accept the primacy of Peter in more than just theory. I doubt some of their more 'excitable' members will agree, but the longer this situation continues, the more difficult it will be to obtain unity. Still, it's not impossible - the Transalpine Redemptorists have just been restored to full communion with Rome and with great rejoicing.
Transalpine Redemptorists message

"...Now we have that undisputed communion! It is a pearl of great price; a treasure hidden in the field; a sweetness that cannot be imagined by those who have not tasted it or who have not known it, now for many years. Its value cannot be fully expressed in earthly language and therefore we hope that all traditional priests who have not yet done so, will answer Pope Benedict's call to enjoy the grace of peaceful and undisputed communion with him..."

Did not the Holy Father write/say that both rites are part of one Roman rite? He certainly doesn't wish us to call them the old and new rites - I totally agree.

As for the SSPX I have known [as a colleague] one woman very well and I met another in our church porch. I don't know how the latter found herself there !!! but she would only kneel at the prie dieu and was not going into the church itself. I didn't know who she was, so I said that the church was unlocked and she was welcome to go in - at which she made a big thing of not having covering for her head. But she did go in - only briefly, though. The woman I knew well was very sweet, a dear and good soul, but terribly downtrodden by a lazy husband. She wasn't allowed to drive a car herself,so relied on him to take her everywhere and she did all the housework, baking bread etc. as well as having a full time job. She seemed to think this was acceptable and right. I'm no feminist, but........ A woman who can't think for herself or go anywhere without her husband trailing along or agreeing is pretty pathetic.

But I'm straying from the point there; on the one hand there was this woman who would hardly sneeze without asking her husband's permission, but on the other hand she was a well-educated woman who had an informed opinion about the SSPX. She read a great deal, but I did notice that her reading consisted mostly of books about the SSPX or by their members. Her favourite was "They Have Uncrowned Him" by Archbishop Lefebrve, which she lent me. I found it hard going and I don't think I finished it. The main thing I remember about my conversations with her was that I was left with the impression that they were sede vacantists. I have since discovered that they are not: they have accepted all the popes since Pius XII as being the successors of Saint Peter; it's just that they don't themselves accept their authority.

I think it was on good old EWTN's Web of Faith that I heard that a SSPX Mass fulfils the Sunday obligation, but only in extreme circumstances.

Wulfrune, 12/07/2008 21.37:

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Duck Slayer - no one is saying that the TLM is 'better' so please don't start a straw man argument.

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No, no. I'm starting it even if anybody didn't say it.
I said "it's better to go to the ordinary form of the mass". Generally speaking. Hear what the Church says, not what others say. Ordinary is "standard" and "extraordinary" is for people who knows exactly what is "ordinary" and what it's not.

In fact, the Pope uses the right terms "ordinary" and "extraordinary".

And so i did. Extraordinary means "out of ordinary", and it means that you have to be careful when choosing; it's not a matter of choices or preferences.

Plus, no priest is commanded to celebrate the extraordinary form. If any priest wishes to celebrate it, he will do it, giving the priority to the ordinary form, and it implies that when it's not possible, he will celebrate by the ordinary form, and just that.

I hope i made myself clear.

We had another Tridentine Mass today, for the Holy Souls in Purgatory. Please see my comments on the Vestments thread. Sorry to have caused an overlap here.