"And there's this man called Marco Travaglio, who's a very courageous journalist, who's collected all the transcripts of the Berlusconi trials, and he wasn't to be seen either".
(Paul Ginsborg, intervistato da Mark Colvin, ABC Net, Australia, 29 agosto 2006)
Transcript
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Italy's Berlusconi planning comeback: biographer
PM - Tuesday, 29 August , 2006 18:31:29
Reporter: Mark Colvin
MARK COLVIN: It's four months since Silvio Berlusconi finally conceded that Italy's general election had gone against him, and he could no longer be prime minister.
But Berlusconi's power was only dented by that defeat, because much of that power came not from the ballot box, but from his control of business and the media.
The Professor of Contemporary European History at the University of Florence, Paul Ginsborg, is among many other things one of Berlusconi's biographers.
He's giving the University of Sydney's "Sydney Ideas" lecture tomorrow night, and he told me the billionaire ex-prime minister was planning to come back.
PAUL GINSBORG: He's still leader of the Opposition and the elections were extremely close, and he could well come bouncing back in two years time. He still controls the major part… the overwhelming part of Italian commercial television.
Obviously by losing the elections he's lost control of the public service television, the three channels of RAI. But we can say that the model he's created of television, and which by and large the RAI, that's the public service, has imitated, has now been going since 1982 - that's 24 years. And he's had an enormous influence on the shaping of Italian television.
MARK COLVIN: Is it fair to say though that Italian television was always a bit of a problem, in the sense that the channels were sort of parcelled out between the parties. There's never been a concept of public broadcasting in the British or Australian model.
PAUL GINSBORG: That's absolutely true. When RAI was founded in 1954, it was founded as a Christian Democrat monopoly. Then when the socialists moved into the Government, they took a channel, and when the Communists moved into Government, or close to Government, after 1976, they took another channel.
So it was always divided by party allegiance. And indeed the people, who went to work there, went to work recommended by the parties. That's one of Italy's greatest elements. And of course that reflected upon any sort of autonomous public service model.
MARK COLVIN: Give us a bit of an idea for people who haven't been there and done the channel surfing, what you see on Italian television.
PAUL GINSBORG: Well, it's dominated by variety shows, by endless replaying of football moments, very weak and poor news programs, and almost no documentaries at all, ever more advertisements, quizzes, lots and lots of quizzes, reality shows, and football.
MARK COLVIN: And what happens in political terms? Why is the media so toxic in terms of the democracy there?
PAUL GINSBORG: It's simply that nobody, and we'll have to see now whether Romano Prodi, the new Prime Minister, has go the guts and also the power within his own coalition to do it. Nobody has said, Zapatero said in Spain as soon as he came to power, 'I am taking a step backwards, I will not appoint the Directory-General, I will allow autonomous tradition to come out.'
Unfortunately there is a stranglehold on behalf of the parties. That's not to say that some good people don't get into television. Sometimes they recommend very good people. But it's always that way first. And the idea of just being a good radio journalist or television journalist, that's not the way it works.
MARK COLVIN: What are some of the more extreme examples of, particularly how people have been taken off air, because of politics?
PAUL GINSBORG: The big example was under Berlusconi, from Bulgaria no less Berlusconi said, 'I don't… we must make sure…' he said as Prime Minister, 'we must sure that the following people are no longer seen on the screen.' And the first one was Enzo Biagi, who's one of Italy's most distinguished and honestly non-partisan journalists. He was anti-Berlusconi, but he's been anti a lot of politicians in his life. And to throw Enzo Biagi off was an absolute scandal.
There were also comedians and satirists, and a man called Michele Santoro, who's a very good, a sort of, current affairs discussion program compere. And he was out for the duration as well.
So was Luttazzi, a comedian. And there's this man called Marco Travaglio, who's a very courageous journalist, who's collected all the transcripts of the Berlusconi trials, and he wasn't to be seen either.
And this was… nothing like that had ever been seen in all the time that Italian television has been going. And I ought to add that it's terribly important, because the Italians are a great television watching nation - about fifth in the world.
MARK COLVIN: You mentioned that Berlusconi wanted to come back and will have a chance to try and do so in a couple of year's time. Will that election be characterised by, let's say, Berlusconi's media versus the now centre left controlled RAI?
PAUL GINSBORG: Exactly so, I think that's what will happen.
That's what happened in 2001 when Berlusconi won. The RAI was broadly fair, but with a slight shift in favour of the left. Berlusconi's channels were what they are, you know, absolutely on their owner's side. And we'll have a re-run of that.
Not to say that there will be elections in two year's time. But problem is this coalition is made up of nine, 10 parties, he's got a majority of under 10 in the Senate, I don't know how long he can last.
MARK COLVIN: It seems to me that Italy really had a historic opportunity in the mid-'90s, when everything collapsed because of corruption being exposed, and it failed to take that historic opportunity, and that to some extent the media is just a reflection of that in a way.
PAUL GINSBORG: I think that's absolutely right.
It was a great opportunity and historians will long discuss why that opportunity wasn't taken, and why after that crisis emerged the first Berlusconi Government. And I think we have… I think the heart of the matter is that Berlusconi is in power, has been in power for as long as he has been in power, not only because he controls the media but because he appeals to the deep-rooted Italian idea that the state must be kept from interfering.
It's a negative view of freedom - freedom from interference. And the small entrepreneur, the little shop keeper, Italian families, if we can get away with paying less taxes, if the state can interfere less in our lives, Berlusconi's laissez-faire goes very deep into Italian political culture.
MARK COLVIN: Professor Paul Ginsborg of the University of Florence, and he's Visiting Professor at the University of Sydney and he's giving that University's "Sydney Ideas" lecture at the Seymour Centre in Sydney tomorrow night.
INES TABUSSO